Curse

tonini · Oct 09, 2009, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

So you get more keys because you have more accounts, what a big abuse of the system that is! /sarcasm

people buy accounts just for this purpose thats why.

AngelWJedi · Oct 09, 2009, 03:43 AM // 03:43

i say bring it back and make zkeys untradeable. i want my zkeys so i can work on my ztitle and maybe get something good from the zchest.

Windf0rce · Oct 09, 2009, 04:14 AM // 04:14

XTH still gone? Heh, good riddance.

DreamWind · Oct 09, 2009, 04:39 AM // 04:39

I object to the title of this thread. XTH has BECOME an epic fail? It was an epic fail the moment the idea popped into someone's head.

Wild Rituals · Oct 09, 2009, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

People are paying for a skin. And what this system does is introduce more of these skins into the game.
If the value of an item is also defined by the rarity of the skin - what will introducing more items of that particular skin lead to?
1. the value staying the same
2. the value rising
3. the value dropping
.

Are you aware that stuff you unlock on a pvp character cannot be sold?

Didnt read it all so if its already been asked/answered ignore me

upier · Oct 09, 2009, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Rituals

Are you aware that stuff you unlock on a pvp character cannot be sold?

Didnt read it all so if its already been asked/answered ignore me

All the people that want an item form a group. And all these people are competing against eachother to obtain a certain rare item.
Giving people the ability to craft items (which being able to create red items is) means that more people can now obtain items of a certain skin despite the game still offering the same amount of PvE items.
Certain people that would otherwise compete with other buyers are now able to bypass the supply.
This also means that a bigger number of items of said skin is now in the game. And if the value of the item is also defined by it's rarity - this HAS ot decrease it's value!

When it comes to armours - one would need to reach a certain location to craft that armour. By offering a second location to obtain this item - you take away some of the exclusivity of that item. Previously you could ONLY obtain it in one certain way, now there is an additional way added.
It's pretty much the same thing as FoW vs 1k sets. Since FoW sets exclude a certain number of people, they are more special.

And yes, I am fully aware that the value of these items was pretty much minimal BEFORE you could obtain them though PvP. Pretty much the ONLY value most of them had was in excluding PvP guys from obtaining them.
And now this is gone.
(Like I said, while I do not feel that this is a good enough reason to exclude PvP players from this content, IF the game is designed to keep certain players excluded (PvE players being excluded from the shiny zoo emotes), then so be it. Exclude PvP characters from this content.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

The PvE lost it's reward system when Nightfall came out. Now no one will be a unique snowflake. Furthermore, Anet doesn't want anyone to be unique in this game, I thought you would have figured that out by now.

As for me, I don't care if it comes back, I rather it didn't and they spend their time on something better.

Yes, I am aware you can't REALLY be unique in this game.
But what I was going at was how the unique component of PvE used to be being pretty. Skins were PvE rewards.
Now, one doesn't need to PvE anymore to be pretty. One can just obtain these rewards though PvP.
But if you want the zoo, you still need to do PvP!
And this is how the PvE reward system was trashed.
And the PvP one wasn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

The whole point of Tournament Reward Points was being a reward for victory in PvP tournaments. The XTH in fact contaminated this very concept, by giving away Tournament Reward Points to people that did absolutely nothing. What the RPs were used for could've been candy, or PvP skins that were immensely better than PvE skins: it doesn't make any difference in this argument, it's a matter of mere principle.

Now, if those RPs were only being spent on red items it wouldn't be a big deal, but let's step away from the PvP world for a moment. Zaishen Keys caused a massive influx of gold out of nothing for each player, the amount of which depended on much real cash the player invested on buying accounts = gold generators. I don't have an MD in Economy but I don't think it takes that much to realise that something like this would break shit up.

I'm not going to respond to "waaah PvPers always have it better" whimpering as, by experience, it has never led anywhere.

The same way we could say that armour and weapon skins were a PvE reward.
So using your logic, providing access to people that do not do PvE trashed them. So, on a principle level - if handing out reward points to people that do not earn them is bad for the game THEN PvP skins ARE bad for the game.
(Keep in mind that the rewards weren't handed out for doing absolutely nothing. The rewards were better if one got lucky, which is how a lot of rewards are handed out in this game OR if one wasted some time and tried to figure out who has the best chances of doing well.)

Regarding the influx of gold - this pretty much only influences the ultra high end market. But that market by definition is designed to exclude the majority of players and it still retains this function. The only thing that might change is WHO is excluded. It still excludes people that aren't the richest people in the game, just that Person A might now be excluded when previously Person B was excluded. And that doesn't matter.
Armours still cost 1k, so do capture siggies.
Massive overfarming caused items prices to plummet and even the influx of money isn't able to negate that.
This would influence the value of certain PvE rewards, had their only value not be, as I have said, in preventing PvP players from obtaining them. Most players do not give a shit when someone walks by in a FoW set wit chaos gloves, which showcases the minimal value of said rewards.

And at the same time, we need to remember that certain goals in this game are not in touch with playing the game. They are in touch with farming the game. So, this free money keeps the game from changing into a farming game because it allows players to obtain farming goals while still playing the game.
And yes, I am aware that removing farming goals would be the better solution.

Wild Rituals · Oct 09, 2009, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yes, I am aware you can't REALLY be unique in this game.
But what I was going at was how the unique component of PvE used to be being pretty. Skins were PvE rewards.
Now, one doesn't need to PvE anymore to be pretty. One can just obtain these rewards though PvP.
But if you want the zoo, you still need to do PvP!
And this is how the PvE reward system was trashed.
And the PvP one wasn't.

Yes you can get the pve items from pvp now, but you can only use them in PvP.
So if you want them for Pve you still have to get them in Pve
This is just for Pvp Characters Who dont want to pve to look good.

so you argument that it will de-value said items for pve is kind of pointless.

Zebideedee · Oct 09, 2009, 09:29 AM // 09:29

T'was prolly greedy multiple a/c owners that ruined it, at least now we have Nick tho, how can they ruin that for us? I'm sure they will given enough time :P

The XTH was a nice, Ch'Ching every month & was kinda something to look forward to :|

The removal makes the Zaishen title only accessible to farmers and no doubt will increase the amount of perma's in game, so it's a fail/fail situation

Akaraxle · Oct 09, 2009, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And that is an exclusive PvE issue, not a PvP issue.

Of course, and that is the main reason why the XTH is a joke: just because I used to be a PvPer, it doesn't mean I overlook PvE issues. Have you seen me whine "WAAAAAH PVERS HAVE MY STUFFS" anywhere in this thread? Again, my pet peeve is that Tournament (bolded this time, in case the underline went unnoticed) Reward Points are given out for free, it'd make much more sense if they awarded stacks of ectos.

Quote:

The right thing to do is to only provide PvP rewards from PvP and only PvE rewards from PvE.

Which isn't viable because there's no way ANet is going to design double the sets of items to avoid whimpering from part of their playerbase.

Quote:

If people are really interested in PvP, then there is no need for a PvE reward system, so we should get rid of "the zkeys from balthazar's faction/tournament reward points" concept altogether!

^ THIS

upier · Oct 09, 2009, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Rituals

Yes you can get the pve items from pvp now, but you can only use them in PvP.
So if you want them for Pve you still have to get them in Pve
This is just for Pvp Characters Who dont want to pve to look good.

so you argument that it will de-value said items for pve is kind of pointless.

To completely blow it out of proportion - if FoW sets were the starter PvP sets, would that decrease their value in PvE?
If there is a bigger supply of items (an being able to craft items does that), that means they are less rare. And if the rarity of an item keeps it's value high, increasing the supply will cause a lower value.

Plus keep in mind that PvP has an Observer mode while PvE doesn't.
Which means that items one uses in PvE are pretty much only seen by the owner and heroes/hench, while the items that are used in PvP are seen by a much bigger crowd!

Akaraxle · Oct 09, 2009, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Plus keep in mind that PvP has an Observer mode while PvE doesn't.
Which means that items one uses in PvE are pretty much only seen by the owner and heroes/hench, while the items that are used in PvP are seen by a much bigger crowd!

Yeah, because Observer mode definitely has a TON of people watching games nowadays!

...wait.

upier · Oct 09, 2009, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Yeah, because Observer mode definitely has a TON of people watching games nowadays!

...wait.

If there is ONE guy observing PvP, that's one guy more than how many guys can observe PvE.
And as you are quick to point out, it's the principle.

Akaraxle · Oct 09, 2009, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If there is ONE guy observing PvP, that's one guy more than how many guys can observe PvE.
And as you are quick to point out, it's the principle.

Because there are no PvE outposts, there's a chat lobby like in Diablo and everyone enters instances singularly. Have no fear though: word on the street says ANet is going to implement a PvE-cam on the top left corner of the screen for HA and GvG matches, so while PvPers compete they can also observe the PvE hero of their choice whirling his Fellblade in the midst of a Raptor orgy, caring very much in the process.

P.S. Somebody stop me, I feel like I'm losing brain cells here.

upier · Oct 09, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

There are PvE outposts.
There are PvP outposts.
Both function on the same rules, for instance, no-one can see what weapons you are wielding in either places.

Once one enters a PvE area, the only people that see that character are the people in the party.
Once one enters certain PvP areas, the people that can see that character are the people in the party, the opposing team AND people in the observe mode.

That's why people plaster pictures of their PvE guys on forums.
Because otherwise nobody would see them.
If you want to be seen, you don't visit The Falls with hench in your party.

So yeah, I would say that adding PvP skins devalues PvE skins.

Shasgaliel · Oct 09, 2009, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

PvE hero of their choice whirling his Fellblade in the midst of a Raptor orgy, caring very much in the process.

To see gvg or HA match you press 1 button. To see this above you need to go to youtube... I observe HA and GvG but I cannot see the DOA clear unless someone bothers to put in on youtube. You do not see it in game unless you are a part of it. I think you miss the concept of fairness. It is not discussion about what is useful or rational etc but what is fair. Even if you post the most ridiculous examples they are still proving Upiers point as the one above.

It is all about taking from the pve what is unique for it (skins, amors) and not sharing what is unique for pvp (skins, armors). That is how I see this thread.

QueenofDeath · Oct 09, 2009, 01:35 PM // 13:35

What does it matter? It was just a very easy way for scammers to scam more easy money from the game without doing aything for it. I hope they never bring it back. If they do just bring it back for the picking purpose or add some cute emote rank for picking correctly but NO MONEY and NO PRIZES and NO LOOT of any kind. Players can have all the prestige vanity they want just leave the ECONOMY out of it.

So, like in the real world: JUST SAY NO TO XTH!!

)

Cluebag · Oct 09, 2009, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Good lord, look at all the waaaah in this thread. RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO's sake.

Ok, tl;dr version:
First part: trolling the ppl going baaaaaawww
Second part: merits/impacts of original xth setup

As a greedy, lazy, tard, carebear who doesn't deserve any rewards cause I didn't do anything to earn them, I say to you all /thbbpththbbt.

I'm greedy cause I bought a couple extra accts at 5 dollars each from amazon, which not only freed up some inventory space on my main acct's mules, but I also get some extra xth goodies (then) and extra nicolas stuff (now)? Seriously? How about you're a stingy dumbass for not taking advantage of those deals when they were available? Just like I'm a dumbass for not sinking all my money into google stock when their ipo became available, and all the ppl that did profit from their investment are greedy, so now I can be all mad at 'em? Ooookayyy. Money for nothing right?

Lazy, hmm, I guess I'm lazy for not putting in the hours upon hours focusing on all the stuff necessary to become successful at pvp and reaping some rewards of questionable value. I suppose I could also word that another way. I prefer to spend my free time doing things other than dwelling in mom's basement, immersing myself into a cesspool of antisocial ego-driven punks, and flailing around in a high drama and rage environment, for what rewards again? Oh, ok, noty, I'll pass. I've got other shit to do.

The tard-calling I'm presuming comes from being a bad player, cause I haven't bothered to break down the game into it's molecular components and I haven't committed to memory every skill animation or game mechanic or all that other stuff which doesn't really matter because I do just fine rolling my face on the keyboard and winning with moderate success. Actually, I'm just fine with facerolling, if the alternative is being that sunlight-deprived dickhead who's never seen a naked chick irl, and lacks the social skills required to make naked chicks happen irl, but who has a nifty tiger emote or rank x champ (no one cares but you, btw).

The carebear insult has always cracked me up. I guess it's supposed to be directed at pve'ers who generally don't want to interact with a bunch of testosterone-fueled, action-packed, aspiring pvp superstars, because presumably a pve'er is an emontionally fragile, delicate little flower, who bursts into tears at the slightest provocation and gets all butthurt about everything or some other such nonsense. In this tread, all I see are butthurt pvp'ers, crying about the unfairness of multiple acct owning pve players benefitting from all the hard work of others, and how all these undeserved rewards are destroying the game, and all sorts of other qq's and waaaaahhhhs. Isn't that kindof carebear-ish by definition?

/end troll

All that aside, I did actually pay more attention to the goings on in pvp while the xth was still active. I'd watch the semi-finals and finals on observer mode, kindof like how I'd watch the world series or other championship playoffs of sports I don't regularly follow closely, because those were fairly exciting matches to watch. I got a kick out of watching sabrewolf's re-cap/play-by-play of those matches, because it brought me closer to other things going on in a game that I enjoy.

I don't have to be a professional athlete to enjoy participating in a football pool or watching the games and talking about them afterwards w/some of my buddies. I can participate in the fun without participating physically on the field, and can participate in the rewards if the teams I picked perform well.

Even if I am not ever seriously going to play in any gvg's with any regularity, watching the matches on obs mode and seeing how my picks performed brought a bit of appreciation towards the side of the game that I don't indulge myself with. If anything, the xth combined with obs mode could/would expose people, who otherwise normally don't pay any attention to that scene, to the perspective that drives how skill changes come about, whether it's witnessing an abused mechanic or broken skill or fotm meta or whatever. I'll concede that most ppl likely could give two shits beyond their free loots, but hey, anet's gotta take it where it can get it when it comes to bridging the great divide between the two communities.

And as far as the rewards go, I hear a lot of ppl bitching about ppl earning free money and multiple accts and what-have-you. Well, the incentive to participate has to be large enough to draw continued attention. For example, the z-quests, I did them for a little bit, got a couple 15 slot bags, and said 'screw it, I'm done messing around with getting these bags'. Or the freebie chests in elona, once I started getting purple crap, I lost interest. I still do the nick stuff on my accts, cause I can give all my sweet/party/booze to my guildies who haven't maxed those titles yet. If the nick gifts had degraded over time, that would have lost my interest as well.

If the xth comes back, and the rewards aren't there, or aren't worth me investing time towards messing about with making predictions and such, I'll likely not participate further. No love lost, I'll just focus my attention elsewhere. Now, if anet feels that my discontinued quasi-interest in gvg (from a spectator's perspective), if that is a loss that is greater than, let's say, the pissed off person getting their underpants in a twist and rage quitting cause I'm earning undeserved rewards on my multiple accts, well, I guess that's for anet to quantify and take into consideration, when it comes to weighing the concerns of their customers.

Yol · Oct 09, 2009, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Bring back the xth with predictions made in-game. Then make zkeys customised to the account, so they can't be traded.....then introduce zlockpicks which have (potentially) multiple uses and can be traded and can only be gained by balthazar faction.

Multiple account owners won't have the perceived unfair financial advantage of having more zkeys to sell....if they want to sell stuff then it will have to be the items dropped from the chest, or they'll have to do some PvP for the zlockpicks. Those players going for the zaishen title can still do the xth, but can also do some PvP for the advantages of the zlockpicks.

Daesu · Oct 09, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Of course, and that is the main reason why the XTH is a joke: just because I used to be a PvPer, it doesn't mean I overlook PvE issues. Have you seen me whine "WAAAAAH PVERS HAVE MY STUFFS" anywhere in this thread? Again, my pet peeve is that Tournament (bolded this time, in case the underline went unnoticed) Reward Points are given out for free, it'd make much more sense if they awarded stacks of ectos.

No it would not make sense to award stacks of ectos as XTH reward because XTH is PvP centric by nature. Awarding Balthazar's Faction or TRP (maybe they need to tone that down for XTH to be fair with other aspects of PvP), is right.

But allowing people to trade in your Balthazar's Faction/TRP for a zkey PvE reward is just wrong! PvP achievements should be rewarded with PvP exclusive rewards only, and NOT transferrable to be PvE rewards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yol

then introduce zlockpicks which have (potentially) multiple uses and can be traded and can only be gained by balthazar faction.

Balthazar faction is a form of PvP reward and should not be tied in to PvE, so it will only work if zlockpicks gives items EXCLUSIVELY for PvP characters only and not affect PvE economy. Otherwise there will be even more whinning about fairness.

The original purpose of Balthazar Faction was to provide unlocks for PvP-only characters. That was correct all along. Then someone in ANet decides to start a PvP-PvE war by tying Balthazar Faction with Zkeys. That should stop right now! ZKeys should only be awarded for elite PvE achievements, NOT through Balthazar's Faction or TRP since they affect PvE economy.

A cross-PvP/PvE reward like that, causes people to compare PvP achievements to PvE achievements and flaming results. Breaking the knot between B. Factions/TRP and Zkeys also fixes the multiple account issue automatically because B. Factions/TRP and PvP characters are account specific.

Martin Firestorm · Oct 09, 2009, 03:09 PM // 15:09

I'm just not getting the passion on either side of this. Maybe reading these posts is causing me to lose brain cells too, but allow me to offer a differnt viewpoint: I don't care what anyone else does, crafts, wears, wields, observes, buys, trades, gets, or doesn't get in GW. Some of you admit you don't even play anymore, yet here you howl your rage. w/e